Just thought I’d throw something out there today to keep the posts rolling. Last Friday I went with the findingBethel guys over to Quincy to see Remedy Drive in concert. By the way these guys put on a good show if you have the chance to see them do it, plus they are from Nebraska which is an added bonus (ok, maybe just for me). Anyway, as I was listening to the opening band a thought crossed my mind, how loud is too loud? Here’s where I’m coming from on this, the sound for the opening band was so loud and piercing that I started to get a headache. However, it did add to the rock concert effect and got everyone moving to the music. Still, after a few songs it was starting to not be fun. Amazingly, the sound really smoothed out for Remedy Drive which saved the evening.
Obviously, in a praise and worship setting at church we are not going for an all out rock concert, but there is some value to turning up the mix a little bit. As praise and worship becomes more intense in the expression of the congregation a little volume helps engage people even more in worship. But the question remains how loud is too loud? Well, I’ll give you a couple of ideas and easy reads to help you tell if you are too loud. The first easy read is people covering their ears. There used to be a guy in my church who would sit right in front of a speaker every Sunday, and he would come to me every Sunday and say the music was too loud. That is not what I am talking about, what I am saying is if there are several people throughout the congregation that are covering their ears it is probably too loud. The second read is the actual mix. If you have a good mix in practice and then turn it way up for the service and everything becomes muddy sounding, you’ve probably turned it up too loud. At high decibels it is hard for the human ear to make subtle distinctions in the different frequencies. Finally, if your head is hurting from the pressure or the lead vocal sounds like a drill, it’s probably too loud.
Here is a good rule of thumb to use. If you have a decibel meter it will help take more technical readings, but in general an orchestra plays at 80 decibels without audience participation. This is considered normal, comfortable music listening level. Since praise and worship has audience participation the level of music should rise so that people feel comfortable sing along. Our sound engineers generally try to bring the level up to between 87 and 92 decibels. It may not sound like much, but it is important to remember that an increase of 10 decibels is a perceived doubling of increased volume to the human ear. Our church does have a higher ceiling level and if your sanctuary is smaller and has a lower ceiling, you may need to turn it up a little more or down some depending on the number of people. At that point you can tweak it to your style of worship service.
So, how loud is too loud?
Yo! Long time reader, first time commentator… Personally I think my mix normally runs a little loud. I think it’s because I like being able to hear everything, and once the congregation fills in, you lose some depth, so when I turn it up, it just gets too loud. The last Sunday that I ran you gave me some good pointers and good levels/ concepts that helped a TON! Basically, find who is your tempo, make sure that instrument is on top of the mix, and then fill in accordingly. I also run my vocals too hot. All in all, it’s just practice and paying attention to your room and the overall mix that helps for good levels! Keep it up D, this stuff is sound man gold!
Josh absolutely true, one of the things to remember and consider is that adding bodies to the room will “suck-up” some of the sound from your mains and you do want a good clean sound to get to people in the back row. It is also true that by tucking some of your background vocals down in the mix you can turn the music up a little louder. Good points!
Hey guys great topic.
I must preface my comment to those who don’t know me by saying that I’m usually on the stage singing rather than running sound. However in my experience of running sound these are my comments.
When I began leading our worship team here a few years ago we had many obstacles with our sound system. The sound system had been pieced together with older and newer equipment and had a very mediocre set of speakers. We tried several different option with how to hang the speakers because of the complaints we got. We have a pretty small sanctuary, low ceilings, and some of it was band issues.
The complaints was that everything was “muddy”, you couldn’t hear the vocalist, and when you did turn the vocalist up they were piercing.
One way we solved this problem was we invested in a good quality speaker. We went with Macpherson speakers. We went with 12″ highs with a 2″ tweeter and subs that are dual 18″ in a box. I must say that this was a HUGE factor in getting the sound right for OUR building. We have much more than we need, yet the ability to run it louder for different occasions. The clarity of the 2″ tweeter has allowed us to bring down the FOH volume and have a very clear mix.
Somehow that isn’t quite answering the question I think, but maybe one way to have control over how loud the mix is and still have it clear.
Anyway… Just my two cents! Keep up the post I want to keep learning!
Good point Jason. Clarity does help a sound engineer run the db’s up without killing people in the congregation. And the quality of speakers are another good point, quality speakers can help people perceive a more pleasant sound without realizing how loud the sound really is. I might have more on that later.
I have to tell you as a church member, it’s not all about the musicians. The louder you sing and then play, the louder the congregation sings, making you sing and play louder. It is deafening and doesn’t feel like worship at all, it feels like a rock concert. Some of us in the audience like to hear our voices and the voices around us. Unfortunately the church I have stopped attending refuses to lower the “decibles” because they think they keep the audience engaged with the loud music. All they’ve succeeded in doing is “running off” those of us that cannot handle, because it is even painful, not just annoying, the loud musical instruments and vocals coming from the stage.
May God help all of you that are up there on stage “putting on a show” rather than worshipping because somewhere you got so full of yourselves that you’ve lost that worship leaders are to lead worship NOT be the only ones worshipping above the congregation.
Martha,
Thank you for your comments. I think you bring up some valid points, some of which I’m not sure if I have an answer. Often times I try to take the whole congregation into account, but I understand not everyone will feel like the sound is the best. I try to help people understand where to sit in relationship to the speakers so that the volume isn’t as loud also.
Sometimes I think that smaller churches do not understand there are some simple ways to lower volume, like turning down amplifiers on stage. I would say sometimes monitors on stage are worse for volume increase than people singing in the congregation, you know one instrument against the other. Please note that I am not saying worship should be like a rock concert, that is just what got me thinking, and I do not think it is fair to group all worship leaders as “full of themselves.” The point of the article is that we should all be aware of the needs of each other as we worship God together.
That is an awesome perspective to get Martha! I’ve been running sound at church for about 5 years now, and it seems the more I run sound the more I find that sweet spot of volume/too loud. I’ve also sat in hundreds of services, some where the music is too soft, and some where I just want to leave. I tend to a praise song at about 85-90 decibels. Keep in mind that every auditorium is going to be different, as we are in a gym. During practice that 85 decibels is almost painful right in front of the speaker rack, but during service the 500+ bodies absorb most of that sound. I think when the worship team gets to the point where they are just there for the music, they are no longer a worship team, but a band playing music. The sound person is part of the worship team, and he needs to be on board with what the Worship Leader wants out of the service. Likewise, the Worship Leader needs to know what God wants out of the service. Personally, I think if you’re sound man is SO deaf that people are leaving the church because of it, you need to have a sit down with him because that’s not right. I’m sorry you had that experience.
I find Martha’s comments interesting. I have been mixing for a mid size church for over fifteen years and have run into this mind set before. Many times it stems from the talent level of the worship team. A very tight well rehearsed team that knows how to play well together will not be perceived as loud as a loose poorly rehearsed team. Keeping the stage volume low allows clarity in the FOH at lower volumes. Please try to use musicians for mixing the FOH. Most non musical types will not understand the subtle differences between instruments and vocals. EQing is everything. Most people in your congregation will not know how great a mic your using on the guitar, but they will know if you led them into the presence of God or distracted them away from His presence. For all the efforts of the worship team, a poor mix will destroy all your efforts! Spend a few bucks to get all the training in this area that you can!
I was very pleased to find this discussion here as this issue has been on my mind for quite awhile. I’m not sure I will ever understand why some people prefer the worship to be so loud? After a while it is not worship anymore to me….it becomes noise at the higher decibel levels. What makes it worse is when the drummer is not sensitive to the room acoustics and the sound man has to drive up the vocals to match the drums. Eventually, more plexy glass was added around the drums with clearsonic panels. But, none of this matters if the sound man wants it loud anyway. How do I convince my sound man to keep the volumes at a reasonable decibel since the Pastor does not say anything to him?
First, you need to measure how loud it is. I try to peak at 87dB “A” weighted. Once you know where he runs it, you can try to establish a range that is acceptable to the crowd attending. Going direct with guitars and using “in-ear” monitors car make a huge difference. Lower the stage volume and the house will not need to be as loud! Today we only had a bass rig on stage. No floor wedges. Three guitars direct with everyone in head phones or “in-ears”. Clean and clear!
I am glad to see this discussion. As a woman and a singer i have found this problem very difficult. For some reason, asking guitar players or sound techs (some of them) to turn down seems to be almost an insult. i have also seen many a guitar player, worship leader, and sound tech who have hearing loss – which is not surprising – so they like it even louder. It breaks my heart because singers who can’t hear themselves because of the volume not only sing badly, they damage their voices in the process, trying to push against man-made volumes that they can never top. I have an SPL meter and our new worship leader likes it loud. In my favorite pew in the sanctuary, the band routinely hits 105 Db, and onstage it’s even louder. How can I ask him to turn it down without offending him? I don’t enjoy 105, but I also think it’s a dangerous level for all of us. Finally, where do you usually find the dead spots in a big sanctuary? We have crappy speakers but I think the monitors and onstage amps are what push it into the stratosphere.
Bill – That is good advice on how to measure sound levels, and I’ve said before IEM’s are the way to go in order to lower stage volume. It will take the band a while to get comfortable with using them, but with some help from crowd mics they will save everyone’s hearing.
Brad and Joy – convincing your soundman or worship leader that it is too loud is a very difficult task. Really the best way to do it is to ask for their advice about how to lower the volume as the listener. Joy it’s ok to bring up the decibel level, but do it in such a way that you have concern for yourself and ask what can be done, at least for you. The idea here is that most worship leaders and sound people are told to turn it down and they take it personally just like anyone else would. Be asking for advice you disarm their instant defenses.
As a warning, the answer still may not be what you want to hear, some people are just that way, however the hope is that they give you places to move in the sanctuary that are quieter. And in turn, they hopefully will become more aware of the crowd and turn it down. Finally, the best way to find the “dead” or quieter seats in the sanctuary, is to sit of axis of the speakers, in other words, not directly in front of them. The further to the sides of the speakers the better. If the room is too small and this doesn’t work, go sit as close to the soundboard as possible. Believe it or not MOST sound people don’t like it crazy loud, they just sit further from the speakers, thus it’s quieter. Let me know how it goes.